Paper Gamer

[weasel]

Paper-Gamer.com presents:



Talking Crap!
A magical podcast
Episode 16 - Australian Nationals 2009

Talking crap is a podcast starring Levi "Thinks-he-owns-the-place" Hinz, and Cameron "Controversial" Veigel, bringing you opinions and insights you can happily ignore, or pass on to your children's children.


(Right click, Save As.)

In this episode:

* The lead up to Nationals
* Awesome happenings in Canberra
* The Final Results
* Effect on the Brisbane POTY race
* About Heinz

Credits:
Starring: Levi Hinz & Cameron Veigel
Recording Date: Saturday 25th July, 2009
Title and end song: Audience of One - Rise Against
Other song credits: Stricken - Disturbed, Perfect Insanity - Disturbed and Please just take these Photos - Snow Patrol
Running time: Approx 47 Minutes
File size: 44MB
Unofficial Rating: PG. Mild coarse language.
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"Thieves are stupid, that's why they're thieves." -Ari

[jmdwinter]

LOL I don't know what Cameron was babbling about but he could so make a career out of voiceover work.
_________________
EDH General(s): 1.(lost)Sen Triplets(lost)
2.Sliver Overlord
3.Tsabo Tavoc
4.Seshiro the Anointed
5.Lord of Tresserhorn

[AanAllein]

[Magus of the Mindslicer]

Thanks for the podcast guys. Having things like POTY and this help make magic a little more enjoyable. Thanks for the coverage of nats.
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Bump in the night.....

[archelon]

[jmdwinter]

I'm so glad you guys have brought up the Heinz issue in such an objective fashion. Yes his mannerisms are annoying but that is totally a by product of his near superhuman enthusiasm for magic. Despite whatever problems he may or may not have, I honestly think he is a credit to the Brisvegas magic scene in terms of colourful behaviour. LEAVE HEINZ ALONE!
_________________
EDH General(s): 1.(lost)Sen Triplets(lost)
2.Sliver Overlord
3.Tsabo Tavoc
4.Seshiro the Anointed
5.Lord of Tresserhorn

[AanAllein]

haven't listened to the podcast yet, but i think the main issue with heinz is that he requires a great deal of tolerance and patience, which a lot of people aren't prepared to provide at a high-stress magic tournament. honestly, i think there's a good chance he has some form of asd (autistic spectrum disorder) which is a good reason to be more, rather than less tolerant.

[ChubToad]

[silensis]

Great podcast guys, I agree with everything you said on the heinz issue.

Good job, you didn't tell me what to play at the ptq though

[Gfish]

Play Gilt-Leaf Palaces untapped! Everybody's doing it!

Also, I loved the podcast, especially that other dude!

[arifuller]

good podcast Levi and Cameron... managed to keep it together for 50 minutes! I particularly enjoyed your memories of specific plays and misplays... well done and thanks

The stories about Heinz are disturbing and made me feel a little ill.
I am newly arrived at FNM, and was struck by some of the ways in which people dealt with one another in what seemed like a maelstrom of talk, gameplay and social dynamics.
Strong leaders are needed to create both social cohesion and a higher level of gameplay, which I believe go hand in hand. And it is very reassuring to hear Levi and Cameron speak loudly and take a good and moral stand about a very crucial aspect of the gaming community.

[welease_woger]

good work guys. flippin great podcast again. gotta love those those radio style adds at the very start.
_________________
"I only drink the blood of my enemies! ...... That, and the occasional strawberry yoohoo, and sometimes sarsparilla...."

my EDH general is Sliver Legion

[ChubToad]

l ike it. i think the point about heinz is very relevant. i also liekd the bits where i was mentioned.
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He is devious and cunning, in both appearance and deed. Beware the Warbeard, for this brute bites as well as he barks!

[badlittlemonkey]

[71dion]

Great podcast again guys.... even when you guys get completely off track.... ....

Cheers to those who did well at Nats ( or the PTQ the next day ).... and to those who didn't, better luck next year....


PS - Also, thanks for the shout-out ( with the cards ).... it's the least I could do to help the players going ( seeing that wasn't an option for me this year anyway... ). Also, I'd like to add, that a fair percentage of the cards also came from a friend I'm trying to drag into the competitive mill..... so a personal shout-out to Ash Cross who I'll get to join the forums at some stage soon.....

cheers
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Only wish I had more time to play..... seeing the PTQ was my last tourney....

[stone]

Loved it!
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BAM!

[Hamsum_Momo]

Nice podcast in general. But of course, it was the topic of Heinz which drew me to listen to it in the first place.

Let me just say it first. I, John Tong, am one of the people who Cameron and Levi accuse of taking advantage of Heinz and then giving him grief after that. I believe it is partly true but I'm afraid neither of you see the whole picture.

Yes, everyone around Heinz can see that he has a disability. Except for Heinz and the Australian government. He is from Hong Kong. To get a student visa into the country, Heinz has to go for a complete physical and psychiatric examination by an Australian-government certified doctor and he was allowed into the country. Heinz also believes he is perfectly normal.

Knowing this, what do we treat him as? A normal person or someone who has a disability? As someone who works as a judge and tournament organiser, I have to treat him more or less like I treat everyone else. Of course, knowing about his condition, I give him as much slack as I can but sometimes it can be very difficult especially when there are young players and new players around. When you're new to Magic(we all were once), you want to play at a nice place, where you know you won't get picked on for being a noob, where you know your stuff is pretty much safe and where you know someone is there looking out for your fun and well-being. This is the place I want to have at Annerely but that can get pretty hard when Heinz is around.

An incident happened at the M10 Pre-release at Annerley, when I nearly disqualified Heinz from the event. Heinz was building a draft deck and insisted of only having M10 basic lands in his deck. Of course, there weren't enough lying around as other people were also collecting them so he decided to either go through their stuff without permission or interrupt official games to ask for M10 lands. I repeatedly told him at least 3 times to use non-M10 lands but he refused and the invasion of privacy became more blatant as he was running out of time to build his draft deck. On the 4th time I told him off, he death-stared me for a very long time and there was silence in that particular area of the room. He then proceeded to threaten to fight me outside later. There were new players who witnessed the whole thing. As a judge, what do you expect me to do?

If I let it slide, it undermines my authority as a judge in the future. The new players might not return as they don't feel safe at Annerley and the store would lose potential customers. And Heinz would go on thinking he can get away with anything.

I did eventually cool down and only gave him a match loss but I also had to write an official report which was submitted to the DCI. When I was in Canberra, I was questioned about the report and the way I handled it and was actually informed by two Level 3 judges that Heinz should have been DQed and most likely suspended from the DCI for 1 year.

Magic things aside, Cam and Levi, you guys only see a fraction of the things we do with Heinz. You two have judged me based on what you have heard and seen pretty much only at FNM and during some isolated incidents. And what is Heinz to you but a topic of interest for you guys to discuss at your convenience?

Do you know that I've invited him to my place many many times for food and games? I invited him last Christmas for Christmas dinner because I knew the two of us are alone that time of year cos we don't have family in Australia. I have cooked for Heinz. I've also helped him with school work and immigration details as well and none of this has ever been for personal gain. Cameron, you used to hang out with us sometimes for games and I'm surprised you don't know that I'm not motivated by greed. I've tried to help Heinz many times and I have been successful on many occasions.

What have you guys ever done with Heinz? Seriously, you guys go on and on about how I mistreat him then take advantage of him when you guys never do stuff with him. You never try to help him aside from offering him some cheap words. At the end of the day, I can say that I am Heinz's friend because I am willing to go out of my way to help him regardless of the mental anguish I know I will feel and the negative feedback I know I will receive from my Magic peers.

Can you guys say the same?

[archelon]

Thanks for your reply. We didn't name and shame anyone because this isn't about a personal attack or pointing the finger, I personally didn't want other newer/younger players seeing this kind of behaviour and thinking it was ok, thus creating a bigger bandwagon of sorts. While being as diplomatic as possible, I shall post my rebuttal.

[jmdwinter]

Since Heinz is all the rage right now I'd like to share my worst experience with him. We had several extremely late night EDH marathons at OGC gabba last year. I had loaned Heinz one of my decks and, when everyone started picking on him for playing aggressively he had a hissy fit and threw my cards all over the table. Needless to say I had a hissy fit of my own and i think Heinz got the message. Lol.

Anyway I think I've heard Heinz apologize occasionally for his behaviour so I can't stay mad at him for long. I think it's best to treat him respectfully but keep in mind that his mentality is aligned with that of a petulant 5 year old.

In terms of people taking advantage of Heinz, I think that's quite a grey area. The real question is who should be responsible for his wellbeing? Where are his parents for example?
_________________
EDH General(s): 1.(lost)Sen Triplets(lost)
2.Sliver Overlord
3.Tsabo Tavoc
4.Seshiro the Anointed
5.Lord of Tresserhorn

[Hamsum_Momo]

I'm not mad at anyone in particular Cameron but I'm angry because I feel that I'm responsible for introducing Heinz to the Brisbane Magic community and that so much grief has come from that.

I am aware that I could have definitely handled the DQ incident with Heinz a lot better. I was told to TO that event at the last minute. I was juggling both the pre-release and the draft simultaeneously and I did not need someone like Heinz annoying everyone else. I could have phrased my response to him better but I was angry with him. The threat from him came before the DQ btw. He said it in broken English which may not have been very clear to everyone.

About the KFC incident. If someone was going to buy 15 pieces of chicken, 3 large chips, 2 large potato and gravy and 12 nuggets, and only eat a fifth of that, I would not spend my money on food which I can simply have for free. That is just common-sense. It is not taking advantage of Heinz because he would have done it anyway. We did not coerce him into buying so much food. Heinz was in my car prior to KFC and we had already agreed on dinner. Heinz does not believe in buying food minimally. He needs to have a feast. We then went to play many hours of EDH at Sandy's place and then proceeded to drive Heinz home at 5am. We all had a good time that night just like many other nights before.

I'd like to say that nothing like this will happen again but in all likelihood, that would be very unlikely as Heinz is still part of the Brisbane Magic community. I understand that being a judge, I do make a very prominent figure in the Magic community and that my actions in Magic need to be held accountable at all times. However, I would appreciate it in the future that any discussion on such a public forum regarding my actions, even if unnamed, be made aware to me first. I hope that's not too much to ask. Thanks. I believe I have done quite a bit for the Magic community in Brisbane and I'd like to think that it has grown since I became a judge.

[mindfire]

[furnace_ravager]

Heinz is not a completely bad influence on the game or any event he turns up to. Admittedly, although I don't have access to the history etc, there is a history of DQing Heinz from events, which I would like to think were justified at the time for each and every one of them, but I can't say for sure, because generally I haven't been the one to do it. The once (that I can recall) that I DQed him myself, it was completely justified, and was essentially textbook infraction/penalty.

From the Magic Infraction Procedure Guide:

[Agentis]

The guy has been physically violent with other players on at least one occasion that I was present at. If Magic was any other sport played competitively or casually he would be banned, regardless of any sort of disability.

So uhhh.

[jmdwinter]

[ChubToad]

i think cam and john both have valid points. Ideally Heinz should be treated well but sometimes he makes this difficult. I also think it is good that the bris magic community has people that are willing to speak of things they see as morally questionable. Also that those whose behaviour is called into question are willing to discuss things objectively.
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He is devious and cunning, in both appearance and deed. Beware the Warbeard, for this brute bites as well as he barks!

[Agentis]

[jmdwinter]

[Agentis]

Pretty sure that while McEnroe has sworn and damaged his own property during the course of a game, he has not taken a bystanders raquet and thrown it at the face of another bystander.

In actual answer to your question, McEnroe is a riot.

[Gfish]

A riot as in Billy Connolly on stage or as in Ahmadinejad protesters?

[tnert]

A riot as in zoot suit.
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[jmdwinter]

Lots of times when me an' KG are watchin'
all the f***in' s**t that goes down in City Hall
We get to feelin' we should f*** s**t up
Yeah we should f***in' start a riiiioooot

A RIOT

/bored
_________________
EDH General(s): 1.(lost)Sen Triplets(lost)
2.Sliver Overlord
3.Tsabo Tavoc
4.Seshiro the Anointed
5.Lord of Tresserhorn

[NickC]

I just read all this talk about Heinz, and I just wanted to chip in a few words.

Heinz comes from a very opulent family, and I'm sure everyone can tell from they way he spends money, there is no shortage of cash flow. He buys CASES of magic cards not boxes, when he could buy complete sets online for much much less. In saying that though, there's something he gets out of opening boosters, and whatever that is, it makes it seem worthwhile to spend all the extra money. He's a man of convenience, when he wants something, he just goes out and buys it, and nothing really stops him as his parents keep providing him with the money.

As long as he isn't being coerced in to purchasing things or made to feel he must financially contribute to be included, I don't really have a gripe.

If I had a friend who came from a family that was quite well off, I really wouldn't feel bad or hesitate to accept gifts or treats , because my money means something to me, as I have to work hard and earn it, and if someone who is just given money wants to spend it on me, who am I to deny them this gesture.

I do fully agree that some people who generally don't like Heinz still, manage to freeload off him. These are the people who 'tolerate' him or only have him around because one of their friends has invited him.

If you all go to KFC and Heinz says, 'Don't worry guys, I'm getting a bucket help yourself to what I don't eat,' then go for it, don't feel guilty, eat up. There's obviously more money where it came from and he's offered the food to you.

However, if you turn around and say 'I'll only eat at this place if you pay for everyone' then, that's really not cool. You're trying to make him buy your friendship and knowing full well that he will because he hasn't got many friends.

Jonny, I do actually think that you mean well for Heinz and I know that when you snap it's because you have him around all the time. I do the same things with my friends and they are a lot more tolerable than Heinz at times. I've yelled at Pickle because he's stayed at my house 4 nights in a row and I just get irritable and want to punch him by the end of it.

However in saying that, I think some of the other guys in that clique just tolerate him because occasionally there's a pay off, and maybe that's something that could be addressed.
_________________
It's pronounced 'Shmlefskie'

Crushing Dreams since Darksteel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUkrE9LTuFc&feature=related

[tnert]

I must say that my experiences with Heinz have prepared me for parenthood.

* be supportive
* be tolerant of occasional outbursts of wailing
* be patient
* be consistent in your dealings
* punish bad behaviour or they'll never learn
* give them lots of hugs and affection (*)




(*) note: only if you're related to them, otherwise it gets kinda weird. Trust me; I know.
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[archelon]

I agree that John is not the main offender here, because he at least does things for heinz (and I felt this way before his posts). The others who outrate 'hate' him and just use him as a cash machine are the real jerks.

[Agentis]

Ok so the real reason he's not banned is because he drops hundreds/thousands into the stores regularly?

[jmdwinter]

[badlittlemonkey]

[Agentis]

[archelon]

I would vote yes.

[furnace_ravager]

Judges apply a penalty of DQ for an infraction worthy of the penalty.

The DCI decides to ban a player from tournaments for a period of time.
Or TO's/Store staff decide to not allow a player to enter a tournament/venue.

Regardless of what was passed on to JT, a judge is never the decision maker to ban a player, and the DCI obviously hasn't questioned the legitimacy of any DQs applied, hence the banning is NOT necessary in the opinion of the DCI.